Never had faith

[Got]

I have been to museums in Islamic state countries, and I have seen geological time frames with whole sections missing out because they contradict the Quran.  We have Christian faith schools in the UK...children being educated that god created all creatures as they are today, that the world is only 4000 years old. They will grow up incorrectly educated....we need to be moving society away from teaching children lessons devised by medieval  monks, it is a human rights issue....to demonstrate the rudimentary knowledge of those who created Christian texts just look at this site that provides details of their understanding of animals...  

http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beastalphashort.htm

[mrmoody]

I started reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins recently. The science behins genes and evolution fills me with more awe and wonder than The Bible ever did. The Bible left me confused with its contradictions, vague morality and frankly unbelievable tales which I just couldnt swallow. I am not a big fan of Dawkins although he writes brilliantly. I agree with him in that he says copies of The King James Bible should be in every comprehensive school, to show children that it ISN'T a good guide for morality at all.

[mrmoody]

Stevie, I had a quick look at the chart of animals, quite bizzare to read.

 I think science books are full of beauty and wonder.

[Beetzart]

Another thing is when people move away from religion that have a void that needs filling, and there are people like David Icke, Alex jones, and numerous New Age Gurus, what have you, ready to weave them into another web of lies.  Some people actually believed aliens would attack during the Olympic opening ceremony.  Others think the earth and moon are hollow, that vaccines are evil, along with psyche meds, that the queen is a shapeshifting reptillian that drinks blood at ritual sacrifices at Balmoral.  The list goes on, infact conspircacy theorists have cornered nearly every aspect of the world and found a paranoid slant to it.  They act like religions in that they have this desperate urge to wake the sheeple up and show them the government (or the illuminati as they like to call it) is utterly evil.  I know because I used to be one.  That was until I studied the scientific method and all that crap just fell apart because it was not rational.

[Zaf]

Its the universe and everything in it that fills me with awe and wonder - quantum physics, genes, well just about the lot really.


Religion has done a lot of harm over the centuries but there are individuals of many of them that have carried out a huge amount of good, the leaders of the religions are to blame for the harm as I believe as they want to retain power over their 'flocks' and not only wars but the destruction of history and currently misinformation are the result

[mrmoody]

Yes Beetzart I agree, people need a modern replacement for religion, be it UFO's, aliens, conspiracies whatever. Modern day fairy stories as such. There was a video on the internet called Loose Change (I think) about how the World Trade Centers only came down due to controlled explosions. It was 2 hrs long and went into detailed explanations as to why they believed they towers were blown up and didnt collapse under the strain and intense heat caused by the aviation fuel.

There was documentary on BBC 2 a few years ago which explained the science behind why the towers collapsed and when they approached the guy behind the conspiracy video I watched and interviewed him he became angry and defensive. He just wouldnt have it, he was right and this 'evidence' that was scientific just further advanced his theory that it was all just a conspiracy and cover up.

Even in the face of science and rational people will still defend modern day conspiracy theories, in fact it just fuels them that bit more. Alot more Americans seem to believe the conspiracy over the 9/11 attacks. My own personal belief is that if believe their own govt was behind it, it puts the power back in their court, that America is an all powerful superpower rather than a country that was actually vunerable as it was that day to a random act of terrorism. Its hard to come to terms with the fact that 19 indviduals who hated America could cause so much devestation and with relative ease too. Far better to think their own govt is behind it all, makes Americans feel abit safer in a paradoxical way.

[mrmoody]

I didnt mean to offend Americans, just trying to understand why there is a flurry of conspiracy theories post 9/11,even as far as going to say that the aeroplanes that crashed into the twin towers were holograms, why people like Alex Jones are so prolific and popular now. It brings some kind of comfort perhaps, to think this event was a controlled event with a secret organisation acting on behalf of their govt.

As the BBC 2 documentary pointed out, neither Nixon nor Clinton could cover up relatively small scandals of their behaviour, so why therefore could an adminstration cover up something so huge as being involved in destroying the twin towers.

[Beetzart]

I agree with you both.  The things with woo woos, as they are known to the skeptic community, is they do things ass about face.  Say a bomb goes off wherever they will tend to believe it was a conspiracy involving the government, instead of looking at the actual evidence with an open mind.  They will then scour the internet looking for blogs or videos to confirm their beliefs, all the while dismissing the ones to the contrary.

I remember when that taxi driver lost the plot in Cumbria a couple of years ago killing several people, well I read a thread about it on the Icke forum.  People were saying he was a MK Ultra drone programmed to do it, that Cameron ordered it to divert attention away from his first PM question time, to the Queen ordering it because she was so angry that Last of the Summer Wine had been shelved.  What these people forget is stuff like that taxi driver isn't some fantasy in a book, it really happened, and people died leaving grieving families.  To play around with things like that is cruelly insensitive to victims and families.  Leave the investigation to the professionals. 

I have read Icke books and how he hasn't had his ass sued off I don't know.  He claims Diana was ritually sacrificed, to the Royal Family drinking youngster's blood, all based on hearsay and anecdotes from unreliable sources.  Perhaps they leave him alone so as not to give him the air of publicity, not because it is true but it may increase his profile and encourage even more nonsense from him.

[mrmoody]

The internet has alot to answer for, it fuels these crackpot ideas and reason and logic go out the window. Years ago in 2001 I found a website called The Flat Earth Society. Seriously, no joke and on their website they were claiming NASA themselves blew up The Challenger space shuttle so as the teacher aboard who had won a trip aboard the shuttle wouldnt see that the earth was really flat. So lets see, NASA not only willingly destroyed billions of dollars worth of expensive shuttle craft, but killed an innocent citizen in the process and also the finest of their own astronauts? All because they had allowed a civilian on board the shuttle and she would in fact see the earth was flat and then come home and tell everyone!??

Like you say Beet, its disrespectful to the grieving relatives and victims memory, this utter tosh that gets bandied about and fueled on the internet. Even the July 7th bombers have been called a govt conspiracy. I hate it all and it is so disrespectful not to mention paranoid, immature nonsense.

My brother who I hadn't seen for years, now believes all this nonsense himself and you cant even have a debate about it, he thinks because he reads and see all this stuff on the 'net it must therefore be true and factual and impartial facts. So people who are supposedly independant writers aren't biased or subjective or even outright fantasists then? Have their own agenda to peddle?They are objective, balanced and factual just because they arent connected with a major news network and are writing stuff on the internet? Of course all the major networks lie to us, sorry stupid me I forgot!

I know the news networks lie or are biased at times but that doesnt mean I have to mistrust or discredit every bit of news information they provide.

Its nonsense and crank and way out there bull&$%+ and it all pisses me off. But God forbid you try to debate with any of these people as they are just as zealous as any religious fanatic about their beliefs. I wish people would grow up and stop feeding and buying into pure fantasy but it seems to be the nature of human beings whatever age we live in, internet or not. Like you say Beet the void left by mainstream religion is now replaced with some other nonsense, not logic or science. People it seems will always need fanatsy no matter how dark or twisted it can become.

[mrmoody]

I recall Carl Sagan commenting on the whole alien abduction phenomena and calling it some kind of collective group hallucination and that that in itself was more concerning than the idea of actual aliens abducting humans for experiments

[Beetzart]

Good posts, Alex.

You're right you can't engage in debate with them.  I make rational comments on some Icke you tube vids like 'ok, so if you want to get rid of this illuminati government, with it's NHS, free education, 400 hundred years of democracy, and one of the best places in the world to live, what would you replace it with?'.  Stuff like that.  I get called a F***ing retard, stupid, ignorant, but never a concise answer.  Icke always talks about change, and repeats this over and over, yet doesn't see the irony when he calls teachers and doctors, 'repeaters'.  So the next time he is in a car crash, unconscious, bleeding badly, he won't want 'repeaters' taking him to hospital, in an ambulance that will go through red lights to save his life, and 'repeaters' performing emergency brain surgery, again to save his life.  I mean it is a good job these 'repeaters' are good at reading and learning difficult professions, isn't it?  Or what about if he has another child?  Does the average parent have the time or training to teach a child how to read and write, without professional help?  Normally, no.  That is why we have 'repeater' teachers, that are skilled in the techniques to teach a difficult language to young children.  It is not some illuminati plot to brainwash them.

Everything, and I mean everything, you could ever think if has been cornered by these simple cretins.  Contrails, no they are chemtrails to poison us.  Flouride, MSG, Aspartame, to name a few are more big favourites of them.  Sometimes I wonder if they eat breath or drink anything, seeing as it will all destroy their 'infinite consciousness'.  Oh and they think there is a cover up of 'free energy' development.  They seem to forget the laws of thermodynamics forbid this, yet a small piffling matter like that doesn't stop them, oh no!  They think putting orgone (which is normally a piece of quartz with some iron fillings set in a resin cone or block) around the house will help cure them of ills.  I think they forget that this isn't 1459, infact it appears that they would be happy living in times before proper medicine and science emerged.  As James Randi said 'you're with us or it's back to the caves!'.

[mrmoody]

Spot on Beet. Fortunately some of us are out of the caves. I dont know how you can stick the abuse on that site, I personally would have bitten back.

Dont get me started on Asipertane, my god I heard it all off my brother, how 'they' whoever 'they' are, are trying to poison us with this. All the while he drinks,smokes and takes drugs but sees no irony in that, that just by drinking certain sugary or diet colas we are somehow poisoning ourselves. God give me strength...oh forgot, he isnt there lol!

[Zaf]

How do you know God is a he?

[Beetzart]

Spot on Beet. Fortunately some of us are out of the caves. I dont know how you can stick the abuse on that site, I personally would have bitten back.

Dont get me started on Asipertane, my god I heard it all off my brother, how 'they' whoever 'they' are, are trying to poison us with this. All the while he drinks,smokes and takes drugs but sees no irony in that, that just by drinking certain sugary or diet colas we are somehow poisoning ourselves. God give me strength...oh forgot, he isnt there lol!

I used to snap at them, but I have realised if you show no anger, they subside after a few posts and end with something like 'you are obviously fast asleep and have a closed mind, I don't wish to speak with you again.' In effect that is a partial victory on my part.

What needs to happen is a huge campaign by the BBC say, that has loads of programs about the scientific method that people will enjoy.  No mention of religion at all, just pure fascinating facts.  They should put it on in prime slots on BBC 1 and make a season out of it.  Something like 'science starts here, 50 programs that will amaze you forever'.   Get all the big guns out like Brian Cox, Neil deGrasse Tyson, David Attenborough, Patrick Moore, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Marcus Chown, etc Rerun Carl Sagan's Cosmos.  Then set up science courses across the country for free with real qualifications at the end.  Make people see what science has done for us and what it will do.  Have people talking about how a beam of photons can be a wave and a particle at the same time instead of crap reality shows.  I know that is just a fantasy in my head but it was science that got me away from Icke.  I stumbled acrosshis work when I was vulnerable a year after my son's death.   He said all the right things at the time, and I followed him for 7/8 years, read his books, went to see him talk.  Yet all the time being a woo I had this nagging thought in my head 'it's highly unlikely that that is true, Colin.'.  But I ignored it until I was about 6 weeks into an OU science course when I realised Icke was just talking crap.  And now in a way I feel that maybe all it takes is something like science to inspire people, that spark within.

I suppose in a way science has filled a 'void' but I am quite content and rather humbled by the fact that one day the atoms in my body at present will one day be sucked into a blackhole, maybe! =+-

[mrmoody]

Sorry Zaf, he could be a she. I always thought of God as genderless and just an entity.

Thats an interesting story Beet, I understand you were looking for some meaning and answers. The thing is I feel the like of Icke, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc prey on people at their lowest or most vunerable. Even Charlie Manson took in the young drop outs, people who had run away from home and became like a guru to them so he could exploit them for his fantasies and warped purposes, supposedly believing there where hidden messages in The Beatles White Album that were directing him towards his purpose and cause.

There was even a cult here in Sheffield in the late 80's early 90's, cant remember the guy who lead it, Chris Bain I think it was. The sermons he ran were like raves almost with pumping house music, dancers and laser and light shows. There was a documentary I remember, maybe Panorama. It turned out the leader was sleeping with most of the young women in his flock. Exploitative is the word. Him, Manson, Icke, Koresh, Jones just to name but a few.

I admire your idea Beet. It sounds a good plan but I feel even so that some would still remain steadfast and resolute in their beliefs regardless of being given science and logic. Definetely put Cosmos on again as I was a child last time I saw it on PBS in America and would love to see it again.