Author Topic: Hello, from new member...  (Read 4848 times)

zanther

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2012, 07:42:15 AM »
For me these experiences came as part of the package of a psychotic break.  At the end of 2005 when I had my second episode, shortly after it I started having what people call "out of body experiences" (OBE's).  They usually happened spontaneously either while I was falling asleep or just about to wake up.  I learned to control the state so that I would stay in it and experience it, while feeling at all times I was able to move myself to full consciousness and an awaken state if I wished to.

The best way I can describe this is that you have a somewhat dulled awareness and you have full memory of what transpires, unlike in an ordinary dream, you seem to have bodily sensations but not from your actual physical body.  The environment you find yourself in and what you experience is still though of a dreamlike nature, so part of the brain that does the dreaming is still active.  What one experiences is a kind of virtual reality which convinces you about its reality, much like we do in dreams with the difference that we know that what we experience is an "OBE".  After several such experiences I have come to realise that these states are not of any mysterious nature nor do you "go elsewhere".  I think one is immersed in his/her own subconscious but you interact with the content in a conscious way.  Perhaps that is the value of all this, not the unprovable metaphysical theories people have put forward.  You tap straight into the core of your being and you interact with it.

For about a year, between 2005 and 2007, I read and practiced several techniques such as meditation and more or less was set on a shamanic quest phase.  I really see no metaphysical connection with all this, unless one simply chooses to believe the mythology behind them.  What I do see though is that they bring you in touch with yourself, rather they can be useful in making you see below the artificial concreteness of concepts that we arbitrarily choose to build our lives around.  In a way a shamanic quest brings one in touch with the true nature of a human being, which is more animal rather than of a logical abstract being.

What I have found out during those experiences is that what underlies the human psyche and mind is a mechanism that all humans and potentially other animals share.  Apart from the ability to use our senses and store experiences as a learning mechanism for our survival, we have inner default systems that allow us to function (or not...!) in the face of uncertainty.  These mechanisms are archetypes that function almost on their own and come to the surface under intense pressure or when we find ourselves lost in a situation.  It is very close to what Carl Jung described as archetypes of the subconscious.  These give rise to mythologies and religions, a kind of personification of bad and good, which are at the bottom the only two states we use to classify things we experience.  "Bad" is anything that threatens our existence or hurts us (physically or emotionally), death being the ultimate "evil" which we try to avoid at all costs.  "Good" is anything that soothes or pleases us, or secures our survival.  On these two very basic and real functioning modes we have based then our abstract concepts, our religions and the gods that some of us choose to believe.

Even for an atheist, it is really hard work to keep these automatic responses at bay.  They are so hardwired within us that they come to the surface almost on their own.  Particularly in high stress situation, or in mental illness, they come to the surface as a means to explain what we experience which is so far out of our normal experience that we somehow have to use mythology to make sense of it.  That is the other dimension also of modern man: we are trained from a young age to want to make sense out of everything, to find its causality so to feel safer with everyday situations.

I think that the way forward is not to seek through religions to find truths or meaning to what our reality is.  They come from very distant times in the past, in some ways more correct but in many ways so out of date that they have no meaning in the face of our modern knowledge about Nature and ourselves.  It is interesting to notice the similarities of all such religions, but not because they tap into some metaphysical source of truth but because they come from within human beings across the globe and time.  They serve as proof that the underlying mechanisms of the human brain are universal among humans, they are the common denominator that can link us together if we correctly set our reference point in this reality.

It is the only reality level we can experience and I also believe the only one that exists for us.  If we are so prone to make "good" choices that ensure our survival and minimise our suffering, then such a choice is collaboration and co-existence as it enhances mutually our survival.

whiteadder

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2012, 09:57:34 AM »
It is interesting to notice the similarities of all such religions, but not because they tap into some metaphysical source of truth but because they come from within human beings across the globe and time.

For me, these two things are not mutually exclusive. It's possible that's just a psychotic element of my condition, but I'm sticking with it as it keeps me going now.

:)
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti

zanther

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2012, 12:20:37 PM »
It sure would be nice if people could get together with an open mind to share experiences and try to find ways to explore what might be...

I do not accept dogmas, as I think Nature is by itself open without barriers.  If we accept the concept of the "All" that Buddhism puts forward then all is ... all at the same instant.  All its parts in some way or another should be accessible to everything within it.  

Hence I chose the empirical path of discovering things myself by observation, reading, and sharing information with other people about their experiences.  My starting point is not from religion (everyone needs a starting point if they are to define a path in space and time...!), but the ethics and philosophy as founded by the classic Greeks, Buddhist philosophy (but not belief system) and Humanism...

I have found that events are created when two or more parts in the Universe "meet", or collide.  It is the same thing with concepts: when an idea meets another idea then we have an event, something new being born.  In a sense everything is defined not in isolation but in relation to other things.  That is also how we perceive time by observing changes in our surroundings and ourselves.  Without these I cannot imagine how existence would be...

If things stood still, if nothing changed, then there would be no concept of locality nor of time, at least the linear time we perceive and are bound to in this Universe...

In my very profound experiences which ended up in psychotic episodes (or partly) in the end, I also was taken aback by the observation of many weird synchronicities.  It felt like something was trying to communicate by creating "coincidences" around me that were harmonious to my thoughts and questions of that moment. I do pay attention to such coincidences even now and wonder...

To give you an example of something that was subtle (but arguably could just be a coincidence):  when my mum died, and I learned the news, I had to go to Tesco's to buy some things.  In the car park I sat in my car very sad.  I put the radio on classical FM and this piece by Karl Jenkins came on, a very melancholic piece, and it started raining.  I felt very sad and without any reason I focused in the distance and ahead of me was a sign saying "Sorry...".  It was of course to say something to customers about a service not being available or something, but the whole "composition" felt like there was a shift in awareness so that something or someone, somewhere, wanted to communicate this to me.

You might say that all this is wishful thinking, that we interpret things randomly and eventually something is going to seem to have meaning it really does not possess.  However, it is interesting to entertain the possibility that if something exists beyond our reality and is able to communicate with us in some form, this would be a way to do it.  To shift your awareness to something seemingly disconnected so as to create a synchronicity. It is like the Universe is in a constant flow of information and perhaps this is how it's done...

Perhaps others have such experiences.  Perhaps they do not have meaning.  But it is I agree a source of inspiration and hope for something beyond the infinitesimal span of our existences in this reality...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 12:27:32 PM by zanther »

whiteadder

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2012, 12:40:11 PM »
Thanks for sharing that experience - I love synchronicities and I do belive there is sometimes more to them than just coincidence and perception. My wife and I once had a shared (in terms of content, though not exactly timing) dream. It went like this. I dreamed that some sort of upheaval had occurred in society and people were on the move. We were on a minibus with some strangers. Out of the window I saw Stonehenge, but not in its usual place. It was up high on a steep hill, and the hill loooked kind of symmetrical and built in stages, though still beautiful and natural. Everything seemed to take on a 'glowing' quality and I knew this was where we should make our new life...Anyway, I didn't mention this to anyone. Two weeks later my wife relayed to me a dream she had had the night before and I was amazed by the parallels. In her dream we had been forced to move but she couldn't recall why. We ended up walking along the coast somewhere, until she saw Stonehenge, high up on a cliff this time. In her dream she also had a sudden sense that we should live there.

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti

zanther

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 11:01:17 AM »
I have been marking exams for the past week in 10-12 hour days.  I cannot take any rest in between as there is no time left to deliver the results.  I feel very tired all the time and at night it is hard to fall asleep.  When I stop working during the day firstly I'm in no mood to do anything else, but then again there is nothing or no one for me here to just keep company and get my mind off all this...  After my depression I managed to pull myself out of the hole and at least start working again, but in terms of anything  else I simply do not live.

With my mum's death I feel that now there is no one in the world that I have a connection with.  I keep thinking of death and how it must feel at the last moments of consciousness.  I try then to envision the darkness and the absolute stillness and how it must be to not exist any more...  Usually this is what I think about at night in bed before falling asleep and it is very disturbing.  I really don't know what else I can do...

zanther

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 03:40:56 PM »
I keep thinking about my mum...  Can't help it...

Last January I visited her for 3 weeks during Xmas, and before leaving I sat with her and I played some piano music on the computer for her to listen.  She was really in a bad state with vascular dementia and was not entirely together in her last weeks.

She recognised the piece somehow, but couldn't put her finger on who wrote it.  She always loved Chopin and could identify his music straight away in the past, this one was one of her favourites, the "Tristesse" (one of the Etudes: No. 10 Opus 3).  When I told her who it was by she said: "What a shame for such people to die and disappear from the world...".  I said "yes, but their music stays on...".

About 2 weeks after that she followed her favourite composer...  Aren't we really just nothing?  Why do we bother and do all that we do?  Isn't everything without any value in the very end?  While we are alive we have this illusion of solidity: "solidity" of reality, "solidity" of things even concepts that aren't really there...


Catbrian

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 10:41:05 PM »
Zanther.  Sorry you're up to your eyes in work. 

Have you ever read the book 'SynchroDestiny' by Deepak Chopra?  He teaches there's no such thing as coincidence, those experiences are all messages about the potential of each moment.  Learning to listen and even follow those messages can open up a whole new outlook on life.  I might try read that book again.

Cat

whiteadder

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2012, 12:26:44 AM »
I'm sorry you're feeling down Zanther - hope tomorrow you feel a little better :)
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti

zanther

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Re: Hello, from new member...
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2012, 12:09:59 PM »
Zanther.  Sorry you're up to your eyes in work.  

Have you ever read the book 'SynchroDestiny' by Deepak Chopra?  He teaches there's no such thing as coincidence, those experiences are all messages about the potential of each moment.  Learning to listen and even follow those messages can open up a whole new outlook on life.  I might try read that book again.

Cat

Dear Cat,

My opinion of Deepak Chopra is not very high.  I have listened in the past some of his CD's on "chakra meditation", and although I think all this is just mental maps and symbols (the "chakras" I mean) they were good and relaxing making you reflect about things and to balance the way you feel.  However, the rest of the stuff he says, particularly trying to blend in mishmash way quantum mechanics with eastern philosophies to produce a kind of nouveau cuisine eastern style philosophy to western markets is not to be taken seriously at all.  

For all that he says there is no real evidence or usefulness other than just to say whatever comes to his mind (and I think not randomly but with an aim to maximize his marketability and revenues out of all the things he does).  

Coincidences may just be what the word says...  Otherwise there is no single event around us that we would not interpret as meaningful: a leaf falling the moment you have a particular thought, a bird flying or crying when someone dies etc...  All these things happen continuously, and since we attribute great value to most of our thoughts all the time some of these will coincide with one such external event.  This was what the ancient Greeks did extensively in interpreting observations as answers to questions or to try to forecast the future, as did many primitive or uninformed earlier cultures (some probably still do and don't get very far with this!).

As I posted in an earlier message, I have considered the possibility of something more subtle taking place but I also stated my great doubts about all these things.  It is just suppositions without any concrete, repeatable and shared evidence.  Occam's razor principle says adopt the simplest explanation when faced with a question and the simplest explanation in all this is that it is meaningless. We just need to find things at times to comfort ourselves when faced with the unknown, loneliness and the eventual guaranteed loss of our existence.