Depression Forums
General => The Lounge => Science Discussion => Topic started by: Beetzart on August 04, 2012, 07:31:06 PM
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I went to a C of E primary school and there was a lot of religious instruction, even in the 1980s. Thankfully my mum, who went to a private convent school, told me from a young age how silly religion was. But always maintained that if I wanted to be a churchgoer when older then that would be fine with her. I remember sitting in class with this really old, dusty, tall, spinster teacher, who reminded me of someone from a Roald Dahl book, reeling stories off from the bible. Even telling us about how all male children had been ordered to be killed, by Herod I think. Blimey, what a horrible story to tell 8 year olds! I mean it has no relevance in this day and age. Wasn't it about saving Moses, who led the slaves out of Egypt, who went onto drown an entire army when the Red Sea miraculously parted and then unparted on them? And then there was genocide, a bit more genocide, infanticide, pestilence, ignorance, etc.
And Jesus wasn't much better by all accounts! Well I doubt he existed, anyhow.
Now this is the controversial part of my post. I do tend to feel that people who rely on blind faith are kidding themselves. I know there are varying degrees to how literally people take the bible/koran etc, yet ultimately they imagine some 'thing' created everything without needing an explanation, and live their lives like that. I do find it a bit soppy though, sorry. I could 'preach' about science, even to the point of arrogance, but it works. As Chemist and hardline atheist Peter Atkins claims 'there is noting wrong with arrogance if you are right'. I remember the vicar who did the service for my son's funeral; what a puffed up, emotionless, old baffoon he was. At the time my wife and I were not married so I expect that disgusted him deep down. He came to our house to discuss the service before hand and after a chat asked us to join him in prayer. What pray to a god that killed our son you mean? But I never said anything as the grief was unimaginable, but looking back I still feel very bitter. In a way that is how religions get people, when they are most vulnerable. Now I know there are good, kind hearted religious people who help others without expecting them to join in their beliefs. Which just makes me feel guilty.
Anyway, rant over.
Beet
NB I don't mind conversing with people who have faith in this atheist board, but I won't encroach on other boards in this section unless asked. I don't want to upset people as I know how important it some, but I don't mind the odd debate.
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I definitely get where your coming from Beetzart, eventhough I have attended catholic primary and secondary school and I am doing christian theology as one of my a level ::)
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I do beleve in Christ but only as a prophet/teacher
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I was brought up as a non-conformist, but I firmly believe that being a Christian (feel free to insert any other religion you choose) does not automatically make you a nice person. I know some lovely atheists and some downright mean religious types!
I think it is possible to reconcile faith and science, but that the early parts of the Bible are more akin to folk tales than being literal. Creationism is definitely a step too far for me. And it doesn't explain dinosaurs.....
So, I do believe in something, I do pray for help and guidance, I do believe things happen for a reason, even though I have questioned the reason for my depression.
Recently my best friend had to undergo emergency surgery while she was on holiday and she nearly died. I said many many prayers for her, as did all the members of my mum's church. My friend has been told that if she had got to the hospital 2 hours later she would have been dead, if she had been taken ill 2 days later, she would have been on a plane coming home from Australia, and would have been dead before the plane landed. If she had been taken ill 5 days earlier, then her surgeon (one of the top surgeons in Australia in this particular thing) would have still been on sabbatical and it is unlikely that anyone else would have been able to save her. And even this surgeon cannot believe she made it through alive.
So, this may all be coincidence, but I don't think so. I believe it was not her time to go and that the prayers helped.
But I agree, when awful things happen, like with your son, you have every right to question why and that the vicar you met was particularly unfeeling. My OH's dad (now deceased) was a vicar and so is my OH's brother. I cannot imagine either of them treating you like that and I am sorry you had to experience what you did, when going through something something so unbearable anyway.
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Thank you for your responses, very interesting to read.
I have to say though, and don't take this the wrong way, but science is the only way forward. With your friend, Kate, you should really thank that the surgeon had a brain capable of learning such a complex profession, and all the people before him that developed how to perform such life saving operations. Religion doesn't cure, mend, or heal, it doesn't have a consensus to save lives, so it does annoy me slightly that praise seems to be given to some angry bloke on a cloud rather then the actual people who performed the surgery. Coincidences happen, Kate, many variables occur all the time so it is not really surprising that things happen to our benefit sometimes.
The early parts of the bible are no better or worse then the last bits. People quote mine the bible, ie pick the nice bits, or the parts to suit them. But if truth be told it is an horrific book that I feel has no place in the 21st century, apart from being placed on the ancient fiction section of libraries. I know some of the text is nice, but even so people were killed for translating it into any language over Latin. What were the church hierarchy scared off? Most of their flock were illiterate and docile, which helped the church immensely. It wasn't until the scientific method was developed by Galileo et al, that humanity slowly ripped itself from the evil clutches of religion. And here we are today. I am writing this thanks to all those clever people who wouldn't accept fairytales for an answer. And how has religion reacted? Well, it can't burn people alive anymore, or torture non-believers (well not christianity at least, although apostasy is still punishable by death in Saudi Arabia I believe) so it has had to become this fluffy, lovely, and may I say highly pretentious, façade, with bloated cocksure Vicars who have a secret drink problem, possibly! Anyone who has say grown up with religion in the UK over the last 50 years would see it as a nice organisation, as they pop their couple of quid in the collection box every Sunday just after the Rev has given a sermon on how it is worthy to give help to the needy by directing them towards Jesus. They all go home in their Audis, and Saabs, with a big warm buzz in their bellies, all the while looking at those, poor, poor, non-believers, going about their routines without any instruction from a book that was based on supposed events 2000 years ago. Do we really think that we wouldn't have realised murder, theft, and anything immoral was bad without an invisible bogeyman to guide us?
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NB I don't mind conversing with people who have faith in this atheist board, but I won't encroach on other boards in this section unless asked. I don't want to upset people as I know how important it some, but I don't mind the odd debate.
This is partly why I decided to add the boards =+- and thank you for being respectful. Although I am a Christian there are parts of the bible I struggle with. The New Testament contradicts the Old Testament and of course it was written roughly 2000 years ago. The world has changed a great deal since those days. I have had my disagreements with other Christians about the bible. A classic example is in the book of Timothy (can't remember of the top of my head which chapter) that says that the man (husband) is the head of the household. I completely disagree with that as partners generally share responsibility for bills, running the home, share parenting if they have children and so on.
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Thanks for adding these boards, Pip. $%$
Your classic example is why I think my argument about how the bible/religion is an unnecessary burden for people in this age, entirely valid. Ultimately religion will continue to be marginalised, while science, and the lay interest it, will continue to grow.
I had Jehovah Witnesses knock at our house the other morning, my wife answered and snapped, 'No, thank you!', at them before shutting the door in their face. I looked out the window and saw that is was a young family with two daughters , only about my son's age (9). Sadness soon gave way to anger. When you consider that those supposedly loving parents would deny their children life saving blood transfusion if the need arose makes my so damn angry. All because some some religion proclaims it is wrong. Read their Watchtower website and see how it tries to justify such stupid sanctions.
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Jehovah Witnesses get that from Acts 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. I tend to point out to them that according to the bible Jesus gave his blood freely for us so that can be used as an argument as why we should give blood and allow blood transfusions.
When I was a student nurse I worked on a men's surgical ward and one of the patients was a Jehovah Witness. We used to chat when I wasn't busy and we talked about his beliefs. Although, at that time, I wasn't going to church due to my negative feelings of the Christian faith I was well enough versed in the bible to have sensible conversations with him. Up until this point he was adamant that he wasn't going to agree to a blood transfusion if needed during his operation. He changed his mind after our chats yet I hadn't tried to convert him we had simply discussed bible passages. It didn't change my mind about the Christian faith at that time either as I was still angry about things in my past. Afterwards he said much of what I said made sense about how the bible was twisted to suit different churches. He didn't need a blood transfusion after all but he left his church and started going to a Pentecostal church.
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Yes, thanks Pip _)_
While doing the horsey chores this morning I started thinking of some of the comments here (I do some of my best thinking while poo picking!)
To me god or whatever you call it (tao, shabd, allah, etc etc) to me is creation as opposed to an entity, being, deity etc that created the universe. My beliefs are that there is no omnipotent being that gives us rules, creates disasters, rewards us when we're good or punishes when we're bad and I believe that there is an energy in all things and that this energy can survive the death of the body.
It makes me sad that people with differing beliefs fight and kill for them, my philosophy being do what you will and harm nothing
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This sort of thing beggers belief:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183923/Yadnya-Kasada-festival-Indonesians-clamber-volcano-catch-chickens-vegetables-fruit-money.html
Throwing good food into a volcano, only to have people risking their lives to catch it for 'good luck'. Would would hypothetical ETs think of this type of behaviour? Just crazy, but no different from people fasting or only eating certain foods because a book tells them too. Yet these books aren't medically based, these OCD like traits are to appease god/s, etc. Or what about hose parents just jailed for killing their daughter for bringing shame on their family? In the UK as well. And what did she do wrong? Disagreed with an arranged marriage (I think).
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Yes, thanks Pip _)_
While doing the horsey chores this morning I started thinking of some of the comments here (I do some of my best thinking while poo picking!)
To me god or whatever you call it (tao, shabd, allah, etc etc) to me is creation as opposed to an entity, being, deity etc that created the universe. My beliefs are that there is no omnipotent being that gives us rules, creates disasters, rewards us when we're good or punishes when we're bad and I believe that there is an energy in all things and that this energy can survive the death of the body.
It makes me sad that people with differing beliefs fight and kill for them, my philosophy being do what you will and harm nothing
Sorry, Zaf but is it ok if I take your post literally, with regards to energy? Yes you are right there is energy is all matter, Einstein proved this with e=mc2. Yet actual energy is really hard to define. It transits in forms like chemical, heat, electrical, etc and this is how it is measured but it is an abstract concept, that only exists theoretically to satisfy mathematics. A dead body will still contain energy yet no means through which it can do work, through an active metabolism. So energy indeed survives the death of a body, but I don't think that is what you meant.
Are you talking about a spirit or soul?
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No I didnt mean the kind of energy you speak of, nor do I really think of it as a spirit or soul, I suppose a consciousness would be the nearest word I can think of to describe it but even then thats too close to spirit or soul I think.
How I think of everything having an energy is that everything has its own particular vibration or resonance (something along those lines) and living things have this consciousness (for want of a better word) as well
I'm not sure if that makes sense, I find it very difficult to find the exact words to convey my meaning here
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People may think I may be pugnacious from reading this, but bearing in mind I have lived successfully among very religious people in some very religious cultures - I'm quite accepting of others and they have accepted me. I respect other people and I do not argue, if asked I respectfully state my ideas about the major monotheistic religions, around which this debate seems to have focused.
Within every population, be it seeds, flowers, loaves of bread, animals, people etc, there is a range of distributions. Look at your workplace or your local town for example, there is a wide variety of psychologies. There is nothing debatable about that, it is mathematics. The same is true for religion, within religion there will be range of personalities, psychologies. There are people who claim to be (for example) Christian, who have never really considered it all, they don't really practice, they don't question it, they don't pay much attention to it either...but if they considered it they would realise that they are not religious. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have the zealots, those who are fanatical. And then you have all of those who fall in between.
The dangerous thing about the worlds monotheistic religions is that as long as they exist there will be groups of people who are extreme, those who believe violence is justifiable to support their ideology. Of course this is true for many ideologies, most notably politics ones, and extreme people will always exist. But what separates religion from politics and other ideologies is that it gives you 'the God given right' to perform outrages acts, and there are countless examples of this. I am not saying religion permits atrocious acts (that is another argument all together - as some of texts support morals that are quite frankly disgusting), I am just saying that in the minds of some people god permits them to do hideous things in order to support their beliefs, and they believe that they will be rewarded at the end of it. That is very dangerous and very scary.
Despite the fact that religion does offer support to many, as long as people read and believe religious texts that were written thousands of years ago as an attempt to understand the word and as a way of controlling society, we will struggle with unnecessary violent conflicts, and we will have those individuals who seek to integrate religion into politics which will result in oppression. Just look Christian right in the U.S.A and how George Bush continuously referred to god being on his side, and to the side of all those who voted for him, as he funded millions of dollars to bomb the Middle East so that they can take control of its oil fields.
Beetzart, I wish I could agree with you that region will decrease and science will grow, but religion has all the signs of a viral meme (unit of cultural inheritance), it is inherited through families, and is also inherited by those susceptible, it alters the thinking of the individuals who have it and it alters their behavior. People may think this sounds odd and even pigheaded, but it isn't as odd as it may sound. It is established and it may never decrease. There is no evidence for the truth of these kinds of monotheistic teachings, but there is an overwhelming quantity of evidence supporting the fact that they are primitive texts constructed by medieval, institutionalised scholars who sought to explain the world and who sought to provide a framework to create moral order within society (conform you will go to heaven, fail to conform and you face eternal hell). Yet, people in modern 21st century society still believe them.
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I once read Cosmos by Carl Sagan who I greatly admire (when people talk about which guests they would hypothetically like at a dinner party, I would just have solely had him along!) Anyways, I digress, he wrote that he believed the church had held back the sciences by 600 years because of their dogmatic hold on society and the persecution of anyone scientific who challenged their ideology.
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I would think he is right there
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I have been to museums in Islamic state countries, and I have seen geological time frames with whole sections missing out because they contradict the Quran. We have Christian faith schools in the UK...children being educated that god created all creatures as they are today, that the world is only 4000 years old. They will grow up incorrectly educated....we need to be moving society away from teaching children lessons devised by medieval monks, it is a human rights issue....to demonstrate the rudimentary knowledge of those who created Christian texts just look at this site that provides details of their understanding of animals...
http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beastalphashort.htm
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I started reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins recently. The science behins genes and evolution fills me with more awe and wonder than The Bible ever did. The Bible left me confused with its contradictions, vague morality and frankly unbelievable tales which I just couldnt swallow. I am not a big fan of Dawkins although he writes brilliantly. I agree with him in that he says copies of The King James Bible should be in every comprehensive school, to show children that it ISN'T a good guide for morality at all.
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Stevie, I had a quick look at the chart of animals, quite bizzare to read.
I think science books are full of beauty and wonder.
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Another thing is when people move away from religion that have a void that needs filling, and there are people like David Icke, Alex jones, and numerous New Age Gurus, what have you, ready to weave them into another web of lies. Some people actually believed aliens would attack during the Olympic opening ceremony. Others think the earth and moon are hollow, that vaccines are evil, along with psyche meds, that the queen is a shapeshifting reptillian that drinks blood at ritual sacrifices at Balmoral. The list goes on, infact conspircacy theorists have cornered nearly every aspect of the world and found a paranoid slant to it. They act like religions in that they have this desperate urge to wake the sheeple up and show them the government (or the illuminati as they like to call it) is utterly evil. I know because I used to be one. That was until I studied the scientific method and all that crap just fell apart because it was not rational.
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Its the universe and everything in it that fills me with awe and wonder - quantum physics, genes, well just about the lot really.
Religion has done a lot of harm over the centuries but there are individuals of many of them that have carried out a huge amount of good, the leaders of the religions are to blame for the harm as I believe as they want to retain power over their 'flocks' and not only wars but the destruction of history and currently misinformation are the result
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Yes Beetzart I agree, people need a modern replacement for religion, be it UFO's, aliens, conspiracies whatever. Modern day fairy stories as such. There was a video on the internet called Loose Change (I think) about how the World Trade Centers only came down due to controlled explosions. It was 2 hrs long and went into detailed explanations as to why they believed they towers were blown up and didnt collapse under the strain and intense heat caused by the aviation fuel.
There was documentary on BBC 2 a few years ago which explained the science behind why the towers collapsed and when they approached the guy behind the conspiracy video I watched and interviewed him he became angry and defensive. He just wouldnt have it, he was right and this 'evidence' that was scientific just further advanced his theory that it was all just a conspiracy and cover up.
Even in the face of science and rational people will still defend modern day conspiracy theories, in fact it just fuels them that bit more. Alot more Americans seem to believe the conspiracy over the 9/11 attacks. My own personal belief is that if believe their own govt was behind it, it puts the power back in their court, that America is an all powerful superpower rather than a country that was actually vunerable as it was that day to a random act of terrorism. Its hard to come to terms with the fact that 19 indviduals who hated America could cause so much devestation and with relative ease too. Far better to think their own govt is behind it all, makes Americans feel abit safer in a paradoxical way.
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I didnt mean to offend Americans, just trying to understand why there is a flurry of conspiracy theories post 9/11,even as far as going to say that the aeroplanes that crashed into the twin towers were holograms, why people like Alex Jones are so prolific and popular now. It brings some kind of comfort perhaps, to think this event was a controlled event with a secret organisation acting on behalf of their govt.
As the BBC 2 documentary pointed out, neither Nixon nor Clinton could cover up relatively small scandals of their behaviour, so why therefore could an adminstration cover up something so huge as being involved in destroying the twin towers.
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I agree with you both. The things with woo woos, as they are known to the skeptic community, is they do things ass about face. Say a bomb goes off wherever they will tend to believe it was a conspiracy involving the government, instead of looking at the actual evidence with an open mind. They will then scour the internet looking for blogs or videos to confirm their beliefs, all the while dismissing the ones to the contrary.
I remember when that taxi driver lost the plot in Cumbria a couple of years ago killing several people, well I read a thread about it on the Icke forum. People were saying he was a MK Ultra drone programmed to do it, that Cameron ordered it to divert attention away from his first PM question time, to the Queen ordering it because she was so angry that Last of the Summer Wine had been shelved. What these people forget is stuff like that taxi driver isn't some fantasy in a book, it really happened, and people died leaving grieving families. To play around with things like that is cruelly insensitive to victims and families. Leave the investigation to the professionals.
I have read Icke books and how he hasn't had his ass sued off I don't know. He claims Diana was ritually sacrificed, to the Royal Family drinking youngster's blood, all based on hearsay and anecdotes from unreliable sources. Perhaps they leave him alone so as not to give him the air of publicity, not because it is true but it may increase his profile and encourage even more nonsense from him.
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The internet has alot to answer for, it fuels these crackpot ideas and reason and logic go out the window. Years ago in 2001 I found a website called The Flat Earth Society. Seriously, no joke and on their website they were claiming NASA themselves blew up The Challenger space shuttle so as the teacher aboard who had won a trip aboard the shuttle wouldnt see that the earth was really flat. So lets see, NASA not only willingly destroyed billions of dollars worth of expensive shuttle craft, but killed an innocent citizen in the process and also the finest of their own astronauts? All because they had allowed a civilian on board the shuttle and she would in fact see the earth was flat and then come home and tell everyone!??
Like you say Beet, its disrespectful to the grieving relatives and victims memory, this utter tosh that gets bandied about and fueled on the internet. Even the July 7th bombers have been called a govt conspiracy. I hate it all and it is so disrespectful not to mention paranoid, immature nonsense.
My brother who I hadn't seen for years, now believes all this nonsense himself and you cant even have a debate about it, he thinks because he reads and see all this stuff on the 'net it must therefore be true and factual and impartial facts. So people who are supposedly independant writers aren't biased or subjective or even outright fantasists then? Have their own agenda to peddle?They are objective, balanced and factual just because they arent connected with a major news network and are writing stuff on the internet? Of course all the major networks lie to us, sorry stupid me I forgot!
I know the news networks lie or are biased at times but that doesnt mean I have to mistrust or discredit every bit of news information they provide.
Its nonsense and crank and way out there bull&$%+ and it all pisses me off. But God forbid you try to debate with any of these people as they are just as zealous as any religious fanatic about their beliefs. I wish people would grow up and stop feeding and buying into pure fantasy but it seems to be the nature of human beings whatever age we live in, internet or not. Like you say Beet the void left by mainstream religion is now replaced with some other nonsense, not logic or science. People it seems will always need fanatsy no matter how dark or twisted it can become.
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I recall Carl Sagan commenting on the whole alien abduction phenomena and calling it some kind of collective group hallucination and that that in itself was more concerning than the idea of actual aliens abducting humans for experiments
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Good posts, Alex.
You're right you can't engage in debate with them. I make rational comments on some Icke you tube vids like 'ok, so if you want to get rid of this illuminati government, with it's NHS, free education, 400 hundred years of democracy, and one of the best places in the world to live, what would you replace it with?'. Stuff like that. I get called a F***ing retard, stupid, ignorant, but never a concise answer. Icke always talks about change, and repeats this over and over, yet doesn't see the irony when he calls teachers and doctors, 'repeaters'. So the next time he is in a car crash, unconscious, bleeding badly, he won't want 'repeaters' taking him to hospital, in an ambulance that will go through red lights to save his life, and 'repeaters' performing emergency brain surgery, again to save his life. I mean it is a good job these 'repeaters' are good at reading and learning difficult professions, isn't it? Or what about if he has another child? Does the average parent have the time or training to teach a child how to read and write, without professional help? Normally, no. That is why we have 'repeater' teachers, that are skilled in the techniques to teach a difficult language to young children. It is not some illuminati plot to brainwash them.
Everything, and I mean everything, you could ever think if has been cornered by these simple cretins. Contrails, no they are chemtrails to poison us. Flouride, MSG, Aspartame, to name a few are more big favourites of them. Sometimes I wonder if they eat breath or drink anything, seeing as it will all destroy their 'infinite consciousness'. Oh and they think there is a cover up of 'free energy' development. They seem to forget the laws of thermodynamics forbid this, yet a small piffling matter like that doesn't stop them, oh no! They think putting orgone (which is normally a piece of quartz with some iron fillings set in a resin cone or block) around the house will help cure them of ills. I think they forget that this isn't 1459, infact it appears that they would be happy living in times before proper medicine and science emerged. As James Randi said 'you're with us or it's back to the caves!'.
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Spot on Beet. Fortunately some of us are out of the caves. I dont know how you can stick the abuse on that site, I personally would have bitten back.
Dont get me started on Asipertane, my god I heard it all off my brother, how 'they' whoever 'they' are, are trying to poison us with this. All the while he drinks,smokes and takes drugs but sees no irony in that, that just by drinking certain sugary or diet colas we are somehow poisoning ourselves. God give me strength...oh forgot, he isnt there lol!
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How do you know God is a he? ;)
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Spot on Beet. Fortunately some of us are out of the caves. I dont know how you can stick the abuse on that site, I personally would have bitten back.
Dont get me started on Asipertane, my god I heard it all off my brother, how 'they' whoever 'they' are, are trying to poison us with this. All the while he drinks,smokes and takes drugs but sees no irony in that, that just by drinking certain sugary or diet colas we are somehow poisoning ourselves. God give me strength...oh forgot, he isnt there lol!
I used to snap at them, but I have realised if you show no anger, they subside after a few posts and end with something like 'you are obviously fast asleep and have a closed mind, I don't wish to speak with you again.' In effect that is a partial victory on my part.
What needs to happen is a huge campaign by the BBC say, that has loads of programs about the scientific method that people will enjoy. No mention of religion at all, just pure fascinating facts. They should put it on in prime slots on BBC 1 and make a season out of it. Something like 'science starts here, 50 programs that will amaze you forever'. Get all the big guns out like Brian Cox, Neil deGrasse Tyson, David Attenborough, Patrick Moore, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Roger Penrose, Marcus Chown, etc Rerun Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Then set up science courses across the country for free with real qualifications at the end. Make people see what science has done for us and what it will do. Have people talking about how a beam of photons can be a wave and a particle at the same time instead of crap reality shows. I know that is just a fantasy in my head but it was science that got me away from Icke. I stumbled acrosshis work when I was vulnerable a year after my son's death. He said all the right things at the time, and I followed him for 7/8 years, read his books, went to see him talk. Yet all the time being a woo I had this nagging thought in my head 'it's highly unlikely that that is true, Colin.'. But I ignored it until I was about 6 weeks into an OU science course when I realised Icke was just talking crap. And now in a way I feel that maybe all it takes is something like science to inspire people, that spark within.
I suppose in a way science has filled a 'void' but I am quite content and rather humbled by the fact that one day the atoms in my body at present will one day be sucked into a blackhole, maybe! =+-
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Sorry Zaf, he could be a she. I always thought of God as genderless and just an entity.
Thats an interesting story Beet, I understand you were looking for some meaning and answers. The thing is I feel the like of Icke, David Koresh, Jim Jones etc prey on people at their lowest or most vunerable. Even Charlie Manson took in the young drop outs, people who had run away from home and became like a guru to them so he could exploit them for his fantasies and warped purposes, supposedly believing there where hidden messages in The Beatles White Album that were directing him towards his purpose and cause.
There was even a cult here in Sheffield in the late 80's early 90's, cant remember the guy who lead it, Chris Bain I think it was. The sermons he ran were like raves almost with pumping house music, dancers and laser and light shows. There was a documentary I remember, maybe Panorama. It turned out the leader was sleeping with most of the young women in his flock. Exploitative is the word. Him, Manson, Icke, Koresh, Jones just to name but a few.
I admire your idea Beet. It sounds a good plan but I feel even so that some would still remain steadfast and resolute in their beliefs regardless of being given science and logic. Definetely put Cosmos on again as I was a child last time I saw it on PBS in America and would love to see it again.
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Its nice to think these atoms, me, you, this screen, the phone I write this message on were all formed a long time ago in the heart of a now extinct star. Now that is wonderous and fills me with awe! (is wonderous even a word? lol)
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Just pulling your leg a little Alex, I dont even think of it as an entity, there should be a word that describes something genderless as 'it' somehow sounds rude!
That too fills me with awe, to think the carbon in my body could be from an extinct tree or the atoms in one eye from one star and another star in my other eye. There is so much we dont understand yet, and perhaps never will. Another thing that totally amazes me is that atoms are mostly space which means everything is mostly space but at the same time solid
Z xx
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Or that the universe is made up of most dark matter and dark energy, which sciencists dont even quite know what it is. Which is more intriuging than any weird,wacko conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are only interesting in the sense of why people believe in them.
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or the idea of multi-universes, alternate universes etc. That there could possibly several of me and you but leading a different life. All fantastical theoretical possibilities but still more interesting than the stuff of consipiracists, or woo-woos as Beet calls them. Sorry for any spelling errors
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The universe (or universes) are just so amazing and we are such a tiny part of the whole
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Hugh Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation is very intriguing, Alex. Some scientists have argued that you continually cheat death, ie you die in one Universe but keep experiencing the one where you survive. It is just an idea, of course, but a lot has been written about it, and I doubt anyone would be brave enough to test it out. It is all to do with wave functions I think but if you witness someone die then they are dead in your Universe, but from their prospective they have had a near miss. Everett was quite a character. He died at 51 and was grossly overweight, smoked and drank heavily, and being an atheist asked that his ashes could be just slung out with the garbage!
You're right though science is so much more interesting then stuff that is made up. I mean I like fiction, but it stays that way in my mind. Icke is such a poor researcher that he lazily just uses novels and films as evidence! 1984 is one he uses a lot, always saying 'Orwell knew more then he let on'. WFT! No he didn't. 1984 is a novel, a good one, but is not proof of a NWO or anything. It's funny because you never see Icke quoting Orwell's other books about how he lived as a tramp in Paris and London, or fought in the Spanish Civil war. Then again I suppose they don't confirm his bias! Icke also quote mines famous people like Einstein, or Ghandi as if they would have wholeheartedly agreed with him.
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Yeah odd that they, he, cherry picks bits of information from well known authors, leaders and scientists who are all dead now! They arent alive to contest his crackpot ideas.
Yes I have a friend who listens to Alex Jones podcasts, asked me what I thought of David Icke. He lives alone out in Poland in a field, before that in Italy. He refuses to admit he is basically homeless. He would say crackpot ideas like police and ambulance sirens are switched on only to instill fear in us as a society. I find him draining and those kind of ideas made me angry. So ambulances, fire engines, police arent racing to an injured person/fire/scene of crime, they are just on for no reason except to make us think there is a crime happening and instill fear in us!
Also he loved 1984 (I think its a great book as a piece of fiction not a bible as such). He quotes parts all the time as though they are actually taking place today in society, especially the part about the book by Goldstein. In fact he ignores the rest of the story which I think was basically a great piece of fiction as you said Beet. I think its a book on many levels including a love story and how Big Brother gets into your head so as to destroy any humanity and emotions so as the only thing left is love of Big Brother. But hey that part of the book isnt worth reading eh, just cherry pick the bits that suit your crackpot philisophy on life
Down And Out In Paris And London was also a great book, funny and I can relate to it having worked in hotels, kitchens and been down and out myself. Strange like you say that they never mention that book. Or The Road To Wigan Pier etc.
I find my friend draining to be honest and the bit that really got to me was when I was out in Italy with him he told me to never have my mobile phone near him, even though the battery was flat. He said there were sensors in it that could pick up our postion and listen in on our conversations even though the battery was dead. I question my friends mental health I really do
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How do you know God is a he? ;)
Just catching up and you made me laugh Zaf. I had a badge years ago that read 'When God made man she was joking'.
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:D good one Pip
Z xx
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(http://depressionforums.co.uk/dpf/mobiquo/emoji/E057.png) love it. S x x x x
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I've been reading about the Pauli exclusion principle, and from what I gather, if it didn't exist then we wouldn't be here. It explains why electrons don't like sharing space with other particles, which means that there is a variation of different atoms, which ultimately means we can exist. That blows my mind, that our existence is down to something so microscopic and out of our control. I used to believe that we had no free will and everything before and after the present was determined by a prior action, which would go back to the big bang, or forward to heat death/big crunch. But that doesn't apply to the quantum world. An atom may release a photon but it is utterly random, so does that mean that free will and determinism are both wrong?
I actually feel euphoric when I read this stuff. It is incredible, and at the same time so mind bogglingly simple and complex at the same time. The beauty of relativity which Einstein worked out. In effect gravity doesn't exist because all it is is acceleration. As you are reading this you are accelerating towards the centre of the earth at 10 m/s^-2, but luckily the earth is accelerating back towards you at the same time. If you are on a fairground ride that rotates at a constant speed, due to the constant change of direction you are actually accelerating! Gravity though is an abstract field, just like electromagnetism. So hard for me to get my head round it all, but I love it.
This is why I find stuff from Icke so repugnant. In an age where we are so advanced to spread lies and con thousands of people really winds me up. Religion maybe a bit different because it has age on it's side but people are seeing through it.
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Take this page for instance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Dirac_statistics
You show that to Icke and he will wave it away as songsheet science, slag it off, in general be all smug and ignorant. Now I don't understand it, but I can appreciate that it wasn't scribbled down in a spare ten minutes. Probably took many hours of hard work, sleepless nights, frustration, mistakes, dead ends, soul searching, table thumping, etc. Icke just copies and pastes.
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Quite amazing stuff Beet, thanks for sharing but abit above my head. I once saw some skydivers plummeting to earth and then I could see gravity in effect. It then makes sense that we are constantly falling towards the earth.
I think Icke and cohorts are in denial, they steadfastedly grip onto their ideas and conspiracies and choose not to delve into science, it all being corrupt and plot to decieve us all no doubt by some alien lizards or some such bizzare concept. Maybe they are frightened by science really, knowing their philosophies and conspiracies will fall apart in the cold, bright light of science. Science is our greatest tool we have ever invented, shame some people even in the 21st century still want to bury their heads and deny it all.
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Thanks for an interesting discussion Beet, Zaf, have really enjoyed it
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I wonder if a science section might be worthwhile?
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yes but I think aethism and science tie in quite nicely. Not saying that there arent christian scientists as I know there are. Maybe so, maybe a conspiracy theory thread also lol. On second thoughts lets not
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Do you think a science section should be in the religious section or elsewhere?
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Might be an idea, Zaf. ;)
I read something else today that made my head dizzy. All particles have a particular spin, but not a spin like we may imagine, in fact it can't be described with our language. Take electrons for example, they are indistinguishable from each other, they have a spin of 1/2. Which in the book explained it as if you would have to rotate it 180 degrees for it to look the same again. Imagine a double headed arrow, rotated by a half it would exactly the same as it did before. Some particles have a spin of 1 which would be like a single arrow head, it has to go full circle to look the same. Now some particles have a spin of 2 which mean they have to rotate twice before they look the same!!!!!! How can that be? But mathematically it is sound.
I'm still trying to get my head around it, but in summary (corrrect me if I am wrong, I would welcome a better explanation then I can give):
Elementary particles like electrons, quarks, have a spin = 1/2 and are called fermions. Electrons don't share the same quantum state as other particles which in turn meant the variety of 92 elements could from. Without spin we simply would not exist! A lot of it is to do with the probability of a particle occupying a state as it's momentum and position can never be known simultaneously.
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Phew! Erm, yeah, lets have a science section maybe. Head spinning
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Thats mind boggling Beet, where did you read it?
I'll ask Pip if she would make one Alex
Z x
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Thats mind boggling Beet, where did you read it?
I'll ask Pip if she would make one Alex
Z x
We need to talk about Kelvin by Marcus Chown
He has a set of books and this is the most recent one of his I have at present. He is a British Cosmologist and very good at describing very complex, and at times disgusting, seemingly ridiculous quantum concepts, in everyday language. Although in one book he has to admit that any further explanation of a particular theory can only be explained mathematically.
Another thing is about photons. They don't accelerate and don't exist until an atom randomly decides to spit them out. But they can be a wave and a particle at the same time. They have no rest mass because they are never at rest but they have effective mass because they are force carriers, also called bosons. You see them every waking moment yet you can't see them.
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It really is fascinating, I shall see if I can get a copy
Z xx
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Mind boggling and certainly more awe inspiring and intriuging than any conspiracy theory. I just cant get my head around it though, I try to visualise it in my head and maybe thats not the way to understand a concept.
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Mind boggling and certainly more awe inspiring and intriuging than any conspiracy theory. I just cant get my head around it though, I try to visualise it in my head and maybe thats not the way to understand a concept.
That's right, Alex. It is impossible to visualise anything with quantum mechanics, it is even hard to compare it to anything in everyday life. We think of atoms as little balls with electrons buzzing around the nucleus but you could never see an electron, say. The concept of seeing one is no existent, we can only measure and see it's effects. But around you now are quadrillions and more of them supporting you on the chair, getting messages from your brain to your hands. Although, and this is really crazy, moreso then anything Icke et al could conjure up, Richard Feynman and a colleague in the 60s suggested that there may only be one electron in the entire universe but it manages to be everywhere in an instant. Mind you this is only a suggestion, no one is saying it is fact. You will always here Icke say that solid things are mainly empty space because atoms are mainly empty, he tries to use this to justify his spiritual tosh. He forgets to mention that it is the wave function on an electron (I think) that stops it plunging into the nuclues of an atom which create a force. Electron don't like mingling with other particles so when you put force on them they go ape and fly around bouncing off other particles and this is what stops your hand going through a brick wall as if by magic. Icke misses the point, or at least he fails to mention the whole story. Again, an example of picking the bits that suit him.
NB I find it hard to explain all this in any context, so if anyone can describe it better I would be really grateful.
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I think you've done a great job and I dont pretend to understand any of it as a concept. I have a visual mind, hence why I like fiction and can draw fairly well. I dip my toe into science and its amazing stuff but I merely reads bit and parts that others have discovered or come to conclusions and made theories about. I have always loved astronomy but even alot of that is beyond me such as astrophysics. Trying to get my head round what a black hole is mind bending.
I was tempted to look at Icke's website since you mentioned it here but dont think I will bother. It will just annoy me.
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I wonder if its worth transferring this discussion to the science section?
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Might be a good idea, Zaf. $%$
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If I cant find out how I'll ask Pip ()(
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It's a strange one for me…..
I don’t believe in God, Jesus etc… and I think the bible is just a collection of camp fire stories…
I don’t trust or really understand people that believe in it, or think that it’s all real – in fact, to me it shows there is something “missing†from their head and their thought process and logic.
Nor do I think there is some massive cover up or fraud, a la the Di Vinci code etc etc…
But, I do believe that the church and religion in general not only held the world back, but continues to be a major source of evil in this planet and something which we could do without…
People wandering about killing in the name of god… my god is better than your god… sorry, my imaginary person is better than your imaginary person… etc etc
However… I am spiritual, I have seen “ghosts†and I know I had my dead granddad looking after me growing up.. several other people have seen him as well.
I also know that when my wee nephew was really ill and dying in hospital, I prayed to God… and begged him to take me and not the wee guy…
Does that make me a hypocrite… yeah… I guess it does…
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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To be honest, Sad Sack, I don't really 'get' spirituality, it all seems so tenuous. Maybe it is something to fill a void we are yet to understand.
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I think spirituality means different things to different people Beet, and 'God' means different things to different non-Abrahamic faiths
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Do we have science section now Zaf?
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Yep but we seem to be drifting back into religion a bit =+-
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Could link it up a bit. Newton was extremely religious and apologists like to point at this of a example of a scientist loving god, etc. But he lived in the 17th century and atheism was mainly the playground of philosophers like David Hume. Although a good retort which I heard Dawkins say was, if Newton was alive today with all the discoveries made since his, he would probably become an atheist in an instant.
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I believe Enstein (spelling?) believed in some kind of god
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I believe Enstein (spelling?) believed in some kind of god
Spinoza's god. I think that means he refers to god as in the things that are yet to be understood, not in the sense that some omnipotent being created everything in 6 days.
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God doesnt have to be an omnipotent being that created things, god can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, I tend to think he thought of it as the actual creation
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Perhaps then it is too subjective to garner towards any consensus then. It'll probably remain that way as well.
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It probably will
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when I was younger I thought of God as a concept, like God was every atom and molecule in the universe, the trees, the sky, the sea and the earth and planets etc etc etc. So god is in everything and everywhere all at once in a literal sense. That the big bang is god as such
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Thats what some of the eastern faiths think Alex, or that the vibrations caused by the big bang are god
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I can believe in something like that more than I can the father figure of God that sometimes does or doesnt intervene in human and worldly affairs. Thats why I said I thought of God as genderless, non human as such, more of a concept
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I dont think I've believed in that father figure type god since I was 11 or 12, then I became fiercely athiest, then pagan and then explored lots of faiths and their histories till I got where I am now
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just realised what I wrote...of course God is non human lol! But you understand what I mean, not a being so much as energy or literally the universe itself and all it contains
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Yes I did :) thats very similar to my beliefs
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we've kind of swerved back onto beliefs and religion again. I havent Zaf since I was in my late teens. Before then I believed in God but as I say it was more a notion or concept than an omnipotent father figure. Even when I went through a brief period of belief in God I still believed it was something humans could never grasp and only glimpse by looking at the universe. God to me was some kind of pure energy not a being. I became disillusioned when Christians spoke of God being like a human. I thought Christ was made into a human like form from this energy called God so that we would not fear him.
Kind of like the bit in the film Contact (Carl Sagan story) where Jodie Foster character enters the wormhole and lands on some distant alien planet and the alien appears to her as an image of her dead father, the reason being as the alien explains is that is so to appear as a form that is familiar and non threatning.
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God is nothing but a tool to make sense of the world. Since time began, and before our Christian God, man has tried to explain their own existence and make sense of the suffering they go through in life by way of divine intervention. Each day I am left perplexed by how we can still cling to this pre-historical mumbo jumbo. The world is a wonderful place, we are so lucky to be able to intellectually experience it's beauty. Take comfort that after we have lived in it, we are part of it's intricate food chain. That is all there is.
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Also in the film Contact (never finished the book. Long story, wont go into it) the Jodie Foster character is a scientist and an aethist. She therefore doesnt deem it neccesary to mention faiths or beliefs when she will travel in the pod through the wormhole to meet whatever alien life on the other side.
She is then at odds with the decision that is imposed upon her that she will have to mention religion in her encounter with any alien lifeforms as there are so many believers and faiths across the world, she would therefore be imposing her own beliefs and not representing those of humanity and the earth. She is therefore instructed that she will therefore have to mention the religions of the world even though she is a non believer. It is such a part of human history and of society.
Intresting notion. I cant say if it was a part of the book as I didnt get to finish it. Beet have you ever read that book by any chance?
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If you look at it scientifically Alex we, as well as the rest of the universe, are all energy as everything is made of atoms.
No so Mickey, perhaps thats true of the Abrahamic faiths but definitely not some of the eastern ones as they dont believe that god rewards or punishes and at least one of which teaches modern values and nothing to do with historic events or beliefs. None of us knows for sure what happens when we die, we only believe we do.
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Sounds worth a read Alex, do you know the author?
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yes Carl Sagan the astronomer who helped make the Cosmos series amongst many other things he did. Great ambassador for science and astronomy.
I dont believe in God, was just discussing my past beliefs. I guess I am more of an agnostic than aethist. I guess its sitting on the fence but how can we really know?
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We proably wont till we die and I'm not in that much of a hurry to find out ;)
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dont know if I believe in an afterlife. I dont think there is heaven and hell and this life is hell enough. I think it was just a concept to control the masses. Abit like a joke you told me lol.
I still think of God sometimes as just the universe and all it contains, a name for everything and everything being conncected in some way. I know that sounds vauge but hey I am not preaching my beliefs in the notion I might convert someone. I dont use it as a justification for my actions.
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Thete are several faiths that believe this life on earth is a type of hell, I certainly think some faiths use the concept of heaven and hell to control their believers. That joke always makes me smile =+-
It sounds very similar to my beliefs
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We proably wont till we die and I'm not in that much of a hurry to find out ;)
. Do not normally post in this section, but this did make me giggle. S x x x x
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no me niether Shaz lol. I want to live and not die anymore, to find out if it can get better. It was good sometimes too. Its not all bad
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I am 100% sure of what will happen when I die. I take comfort in that.
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Thats great, but your views may not be the same as many other people's.
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No Zaf it may not, but when I'm dead and deep in hell and suffering all torments that Satan can imagine I give you my permission to point and laugh at me from your lofty outlook.
Unfortunately for me and my belief there is no 'I told you so'.
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I'm not the sort of person to gloat Mickey even if I did believe in heaven and hell, which I dont.
Whatever happens at the end I hope you find peace
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who really knows for certain what happens when we die. I know the body decomposes thats for sure and even the bones will turn to dust one day. Beet mentioned some intriuging possibilities earlier in the thread.
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It's not about gloating, it's about reason. I hope to find peace before I die and not after. No offence Zaf.
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None of us can be certain till it happens even if we believe we do
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It's not about gloating, it's about reason. I hope to find peace before I die and not after. No offence Zaf.
I'm not sure what you mean by reason.
No offence taken, I hope you do too
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I'm pretty sure you know what reason is Zaf. Religion is so ingrained in our society that to not believe is seen as madness. Sometimes I feel like one of the few people who can see the Emperor is naked.
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That is a load of codswallop, it may have been a hundred years ago but certainly not now. If not to believe (I assume in the Abrahamic god) is a sign of madness there must be a hell of a lot of mad people in the world these days.
I think among my family and close friends most are either athiest or do not believe in conventional religions or faiths
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There are intellectual people who pussyfoot around the area of religion for fear of upsetting the masses Zaf. Just because something has been around since millennia doesn't make it true.
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No it certainly doesnt
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Thank you for clearing that up Zaf.
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But whatever people choose to believe we should respect their beliefs and not try to alter them imo
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I dont think for a minute people like Richard Dawkins pussyfoot around with his beliefs. He is somewhat proud in being an aethist and although a brilliant writer he irks me in that he wants to convert everyone to his belief or else you are deluded.
This discussion has gone back to religion again. Maybe we should have left it in the aethist section after all.
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I think anyone that trys to convert others to their own beliefs is wrong.
I'm beginning to wonder that too!
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I agree Zaf, no one whether aethist or religious should try converting anyone.
People say religion is the cause of all wars. No, its human beings that are the cause of all wars. Take away all religion and there would still be wars and fighting. I think all wars are about land and resources, religion just being an excuse in some instances.
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ok I should have mentioned ideology and genocide as causes of war also. But I think mostly religion is used as an excuse for war where as its about a land grab for whatever reasons such as resources
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It is in many cases I think but even the wars and killings that are based on religion are due to extremists within those particular religions
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Science isn't a belief, it is a collection of theories that describes natural phenomenon. It tells us why the sky is blue, why rivers flows downhill and apples fall to the ground, why the sun can shine for billions of years, why there are extinct volcanoes, why Mount Olympus on Mars grew so high, etc, etc.
There are laws in science, and theories describe them Science stands by the best theory for each law until someone can give a better description and usurp it. If people want to attach themselves to something someone made up then that's fine, but having that crutch, whether it be some 'energy' or a god, in my opinion holds people back from really exploring the beauty of everything, and why it is what it is, objectively. People always go for the easiest option and just because we are alive by incredible luck, I mean the chances of anyone being born as they are longer then winning the jackpot on the lottery. But to be born is a developed country like the UK, which lets be honest is one of the best in the world, instead of say Afghanistan further increases your luck. But to be born in an age where science is progressing exponentially to make our lives even better (that is subjective but I believe we are better off now then if we had lived 200 years ago), your luck has just gone through the roof. And to be born into the most intelligent species on the planet, well...
So with incredible opportunity that having a homosapien body gives, what do most people choose to do? Believe that this life of 70/80 years isn't enough and arrogantly and greedily want to live forever. Make the most of this beautiful planet, solar system, Universe in the time you have. In a few billion years the atoms in your eye reading this maybe hurtling into an oncoming Comet. In that sense you do live forever, it's just that you will be scattered across the Cosmos, in trillions of little pieces.
I think we should divert back to science in this thread. One thing that amazes me is how all the cells in our body work tirelessly to keep us alive, and sacrifice themselves when a code tells the too.
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Much of what you say Beet is, in my opinion, 100% correct but actually my beliefs have encouraged me to find out more about quantum physics and other scientific findings and research.
One thing I find particularly fascinating is the research into how genes work where illness is concerned
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I didnt say I still believed that Beet, I was talking about my past beliefs.
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I dont neccesarily believe having faith or a belief in God holds people back from finding out and discovering the wonders of the universe. Some scientists have faith and I know some Christians are astro-physists or believe in evolution also.
I agree that it seems quite arrogant to believe there is some paradise awaiting some of us when we die. Why not animals as well then?
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Crossed wires somewhere, Alex. My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a general observation. I can't understand how a scientist can have faith, the two just contradict each other, surely it would just cause cognitive dissonance.
Why not animals, indeed? Why not rivers, or mountains? As for death, the only plausible explanation is your brain becomes starved of oxygen and can no longer function. I think the closest explanation for it is like having a general anesthetic and never waking up.
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oh ok Beet.
Yes probably so and I think there is alot of comfort in that thought too when life becomes like hell.
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But it is a fact that some scientists have strong faith, and I'm sure I read somewhere that for one or two their faith has been strengthened by discoveries made in modern times
I imagine death like being gently wrapped in something black, peaceful and comfortable and it can be a nice thought when life is really tough
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To me, Zaf, you're idea may depend on how you die. Thing is you could never know because the brain would no longer work.
How many scientists actually have faith though? I did red some time ago that is was a small minority, and didn't include anyone of prominence. Although a few mathematicians are very religious like John Lennox who debates scientists like Dawkins and Peter Atkins. Atkins was the one who said 'there are two mysteries, why we are all here and why scientists have faith'.
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It may well, we wont really know till the time comes, perhaps believing it will be peaceful is my way of not fearing it.
I'm not sure to be honest, perhaps when I have time I'll google it ;)
I shall probably continue to believe in something until someone can completely and utterly disprove it with watertight evidence
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The thing is is very hard to disprove negatives, almost impossible. If someone says they believe in God, you can't physically disprove them, just like if I said that gnomes haven't just buried my pet unicorn on Atlantis. I think it is just a coping mechanism, which is fine and none of my business but you require water tight evidence to disprove it which you know you will never get.
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It is quite possibly a coping mechanism, but science requires proof so I would need proof too
Z xx
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That's fair enough! =+-
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=+-
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thee only one true religion of God and many man made religion, listern to this HQ Qari Sadaqat Ali Surah Rehman تلاوة خاشعة جدا سورة الرØمن كاملة (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIE48O6K0M#ws) it will give u faith, but please listen attentively
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I was born into Christianity, went to all the Christian schools and was even al alter boy growing up.
I do not belive in religion though, I see them as guidelines for life. all religions in their round about way speak of the same things... treating people right, having morals, principles.....
I remember after a suicide attempt the lady opposite me in her bed was a bible basher so to speak and after conversations with them I took a gift of a bible from them and read a bit of it...
its basicly a self help book for life.
ive read into conspiracy theories a bit and made my own opinions and although everyone is entitled to their opinion mine is that having faith is important. some people have faith in god, or ganesh, Buddha whoever, but I like to think that having faith in yourself is the most important thing. how can you live your destiny in another ideals way?
good topic :)
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Have you ever read the Quran ? i would advise everyone to do this, it changed my life and also many others, Allah guildes whomever he wills, so ask your lord for guidance with sincerity, we came from God and we shall return to him
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I haven't no my brother has spoken about it before though..
I have to admit I kind of switch off when people start talking religion, even if I read a self help book that says have faith in god and all will be ok I shrug that phrase off and continue reading..
obviously everyone has their opinions and what works for one person may not work for another...
I wish I could believe in religion like so many. fact of the matter is I just don't..